[Let it burn]

Obviously the CFO doesn't have too much interest in co-operation. Bray are down crew so Greystones are now 2nd pump for incidents in Bray. So if you have another 3 pump in the morning that the Mark and Brian turned out to the response would be Bray, Greystones & Rathdrum while Dun Laoire full timers sit 10 minutes up the road unable to assist. Its not all about money, we need better management of resources.

I agree Red
However it looks like nothing has changed.
i was down the country today, a little off the beaten track when at the edge of a village I came across a trailer on fire, close to a large shed. I called it in.
I had just 5 minutes earlier passed through a town with a fire station. I knew the town i was travelling to has a fire station and was 12 miles up the road.
I waited, and waited, and 29 minutes later an appliance arrived and very professionally dealt with the fire. However the writing on the side of the appliance indicated that it was not from the town 5 miles or 12 miles away, but from a station almost 20 miles away. I got into my car and looked at the road map, and the reason became apparent. the village was on the main road between the two towns but was actually in a differt county because of the way the county boundary is set up. this means that the nearest brigade FROM THAT COUNTY responds, totally ignoring that there are closer fire stations.
OK so this was not a major shout, but what if it were a persons reported.
ABSOLUTELY CRAZY

[alpha]

A lot of questions there.
I dont for a minute agree with the existing two tier entry and it is definately an issue that experienced firefighters are ineligible for promtion beyond SO ( outside Dublin and Cork anyway) but I wouldnt agree either that engineers dont know what they are doing. They do, but unfortunately in a lot of cases they dont have any firefighting experience which makes their engineering experience less relevant.
To be fair I would also say that any engineer in the service that I have come across certainly knows plenty about building construction, the problem is I dont know enough and Im the one putting out the fires and I would imagine most firefighters feel the same.
We have two seperate tiers with all the experience and qualifications between us thats needed,but neither of us have both and something suffers when thats the case.
As regards the power to investigate, although there is some mention of it in the fire services act, I dont know of any fire authority that formaly investigates fire cause and daft as it may seem until there are trained fire investigators in the fire service, it wil be left to the Gardai to establish cause. Maybe we can do fingerprinting and see would people think that makes sense.
With regard to wages, Ive looked at the costing for Bray and to be honest it looks pretty accurate, there are an awful lot more costs than just the hourly rate, add in shift, weekend allowance, bank holiday, living out allowance, meals etc and multiply it by whatever amount of firefighters you require by four or five watches and you end up with a fairly serious pay bill. Limerick City have only 60 odd firefighters and it costs almost 4million euro in wages.
I know one thing for sure, there are an awful lot of questions to be answered yet, and until we have some independent voice to investigate what the situation was , what happened and where we need to go from here to prevent it happening again, we will still be arguing about it in 10m years time.

[RedOdare]

I agree Red
However it looks like nothing has changed.
i was down the country today, a little off the beaten track when at the edge of a village I came across a trailer on fire, close to a large shed. I called it in.
I had just 5 minutes earlier passed through a town with a fire station. I knew the town i was travelling to has a fire station and was 12 miles up the road.
I waited, and waited, and 29 minutes later an appliance arrived and very professionally dealt with the fire. However the writing on the side of the appliance indicated that it was not from the town 5 miles or 12 miles away, but from a station almost 20 miles away. I got into my car and looked at the road map, and the reason became apparent. the village was on the main road between the two towns but was actually in a differt county because of the way the county boundary is set up. this means that the nearest brigade FROM THAT COUNTY responds, totally ignoring that there are closer fire stations.
OK so this was not a major shout, but what if it were a persons reported.
ABSOLUTELY CRAZY

Yea crazy is it all over. The Bray incident sadly comes and goes and the politians duck for cover till the dust settles whether it be looking at full time for Bray or the stupidity and ignorance of cross border co-operation like that trailer fire response.

And in fairness everyone including all fire fighters have to support a "nearest pump response", I've seen and heard of some f/f's going loopers cause a pump from a different county ends up in their "patch", we all know this can happen often when a caller isn't sure the exact location of a incident is.

In dublin we see the madness on a daily basis on the ambulance service, DFB ambos passing available HB ambos to calls and vice versa. We're talking cardiac arrests with the nearest available ambos not neccesarily being the one that turns up. If its a relation of mine is involved in a medical or fire incident I want and deserve the nearest qualified response but no one in authority so far is brave enough to ensure that is guaranteed.

[afirespotter]

So you don't think recruiting training, equipping these new crews would soak up any money? Have you read the report either?

http://www.wicklow.i...Draft%20_2_.pdf
As for the country having "a glut of engineers", have a look at a jobs website and come back to me.

Yes, I have read the so called "Report". It tells me nothing about fire fighting or your interest in fire engineering.

I was on about simple building construction not "hypothetical fires".

The "Report", for example, addresses turn out times. What do you mean by "turn out times" ?

I presume it is when the first posse of braves are ready in their post 81 red machine to leave HQ. I presume this is the average time. What is the longest time before departure ? What about peak time traffic ? Brian (RIP) could not have travelled from Woodbrook to Boghall in 6 minutes, get real.

It was said on TV that Brian (RIP) himself said that he had to wait at HQ for the rest of a crew while watching the smoke signals across the road in Oldcourt where Teresa (RIP) & Chris (RIP) were breathing their last.

Your interpretation of turn out times is of no use to any of the deceased families.

In real time, how long was it from the 999 (112) call (I believe from the builders) was received until there was water on the fire in Dargle road ? By some accounts it was at least 30 minutes !!

That is the critical time period by which "turn out time" should be measured, not when they are "almost" ready to leave HQ.

That building was already burning for more that half an hour when the first water was applied !!!!

My financial comments relating to manpower costs referred only to wages. I am aware that other costs e.g. training needs to be added. However, I believe that one of the Bray Chief officers travels countrywide training firemen at other stations. Does Bray get "paid" by other authoritied for this training "expertise". Who trained the trainer ? What qualified him ?

Another comment elsewhere relates to training firemen (lack of) about simple building construction. In other words, many of them do not know that a fire in a prefabricated truss roof space of a dwelling will cause the roof to collapse within approx. 10 minutes !!! In other words within 4 minutes of "turn out time" !!!!

Let's get the training right.

More to follow when I have cooled down.

[Chilled]

The demands for Bray to go fulltime are not concentrating on the real problem within the countries fire service. Any decision to change fire cover in an area must be made on a regional basis. Giving Bray fulltime cover will not solve the problems of similar sized towns throughout the rest of the country. A single authority must be making these decisions across the country so that the same standards apply everywhere

The calls for a fulltime Bray service in memory of the lads who died are admirable but the do not address the underlying problems with the running and organisation of the service.

[afirespotter]

The demands for Bray to go fulltime are not concentrating on the real problem within the countries fire service. Any decision to change fire cover in an area must be made on a regional basis. Giving Bray fulltime cover will not solve the problems of similar sized towns throughout the rest of the country. A single authority must be making these decisions across the country so that the same standards apply everywhere

The calls for a fulltime Bray service in memory of the lads who died are admirable but the do not address the underlying problems with the running and organisation of the service.

Note that none of the training manuals mention the word "CONSTRUCTION" except Fire Station Construction and "SPINE" construction and a little about sandwich panels. How many firefighters know where to find (for example) a spine wall ?

Note that none of the training manuals mention the word "TRUSS". How many firefighters know what a truss is ?

Note that none of the training manuals mention the word "ROOF" other than referring to a danger to firefighters from falling from a height and about roof ladders and a little about toxicity from sandwich panels. How many firefighters know what a sandwich panel is or where to find one or where the danger to them lies ?

THERE IS NO ADVICE OR GUIDANCE ABOUT POTENTIAL ROOF COLLAPSE WITH FIREFIGHTERS BENEATH !!!!

Again I am reminded of the Bray 2 by the Stratford on Avon 4 and their warehouse roof collapse. RIP

WHAT NEXT !!!!!!!!!!!

[afirespotter]

Wow, where to start.

The report is online, have you read it? Surely you don't think the cost of employing a person fulltime starts and stops at their salary?

As for the officers, are you familiar with the qualifications for the positions, and indeed the subsequent training?

All buildings, old and new, ARE liable to suffer roof collapse at an early stage in any outbreak of fire.

In Building Regulations a roof is NOT an element of structure and requires NO FIRE RESISTANCE !!!

Therefore, roof stability and integrity in any building (on fire) CANNOT be guaranteed.

NO ROOF CAN BE GUARANTEED NOT TO COLLAPSE. Stratford, Bray, Swords, Hatfield, Colindale, Shrewsbury, Willenhall, Madrid, WTC to name but a few !!!!!!!!!!

[yellowjacket]

Afirespoter, what exactly are you talking about?

The report I liked to was the feasibility study regarding wholetime cover in Bray, in response to your postulations regarding costs of same. You still appear not to have looked at it, as it has nothing to do with the other subjects you mention.

After that, you appear to have begun ranting at me about previous posts. You're putting all sorts of words in my mouth that I haven't used, and I don't think we are talking about remotely similar things. As for Building Regs bit, thanks for the little lesson, but it doesn't come as news to me - what exactly was the point posting it?

Your posts are exhibiting more and more surplus capital letters and exclamation marks as time goes on. These are not indicative of rational debate. What exactly is your agenda?

[portlairge]

Afirespoter, what exactly are you talking about?

The report I liked to was the feasibility study regarding wholetime cover in Bray, in response to your postulations regarding costs of same. You still appear not to have looked at it, as it has nothing to do with the other subjects you mention.

After that, you appear to have begun ranting at me about previous posts. You're putting all sorts of words in my mouth that I haven't used, and I don't think we are talking about remotely similar things. As for Building Regs bit, thanks for the little lesson, but it doesn't come as news to me - what exactly was the point posting it?

Your posts are exhibiting more and more surplus capital letters and exclamation marks as time goes on. These are not indicative of rational debate. What exactly is your agenda?
P.S why did you slip in the query about the incident command at the Bray fire? Questions of that nature are totally inappropriate on this forum at this stage, and should be left to the investigators of the tragedy to do their work.

here here yellowjacket
meaby its time to stop this post cos its starting a blame game and it's going to get dirty...
meaby start it up again after the investigation reports are out..
and until then nobody can be blamed... legal action and all that stuff....

[SiteAdministrator]

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[alpha]

This is getting really depressing.
Firespotter, what are you actually talking about. I have to say its very confusing. I agree that there are a whole host of issues which have reared their head since Bray, but as most of us are still in the dark as to what actually definately happened there and until we all find that out, a lot of your comments are causing unnecessary offence.
I am in total agreement with yellowjacket, the feasibility study on a fulltime service for Bray is just that, a feasibility study, and to be fair to it, while people may not like what it has to say, it seems pretty accurate in its detail.
I would also say that Chilled's comment regarding a regional approach to fire cover is very valid. Everyone seems to be of the opinion that the answer is in one of only two options available, retained or fulltime and maybe that is not the issue at all.
Finally, I am getting a bit sick of all the comments suggesting firefighters, be they retained or otherwise dont know what they should know - give it a rest, its not true. We may not know every single thing, but then who does?

[RedOdare]

Be a shame to lose the debate because as Chilled said its more than just a full time or retained service for Bray, its hoping that the tragic loss of Mark and Brian would not be in forgotten and that it might actually bring some focus on the issues. Issues that show how the fire service in Ireland is ignored.

I agree out of respect if nothing else keep the debate civil and to the point.

[alpha]

Just looking at the Sunday World today and if it is true that they didnt pay Brian for the call he was killed on , because "he didnt finish the hour" , its incredible , shame on Wicklow County Council, shame.

[Let it burn]

Be careful what you say lads.

[Blackbolt]

Just looking at the Sunday World today and if it is true that they didnt pay Brian for the call he was killed on , because "he didnt finish the hour" , its incredible , shame on Wicklow County Council, shame.

You have to be sh/tting me, that has to be a rumer

[alpha]

You have to be sh/tting me, that has to be a rumer

Well, I wouldnt suggest that The Sunday World is the epitome of fact, but according to it , Wicklow Co Co have admitted that he wasnt paid because of this rule, incredible altogether if it is definately the case.

[RedOdare]

Well, I wouldnt suggest that The Sunday World is the epitome of fact, but according to it , Wicklow Co Co have admitted that he wasnt paid because of this rule, incredible altogether if it is definately the case.

According to the Sunday world they also offered to pay for the funeral expenses verbally and now have said they will only make a contribution, as Let it Burn says you have be careful from a Libel perspective but this is exactly what the Sunday World stated in their article yesterday.

If its true it would turn your stomach.

[doc176]

According to the Sunday world they also offered to pay for the funeral expenses verbally and now have said they will only make a contribution, as Let it Burn says you have be careful from a Libel perspective but this is exactly what the Sunday World stated in their article yesterday.

If its true it would turn your stomach.

Question. Is there any sort of a Line of Duty Death (LODD) Benefit payable to a firefighters family, if he's killed while on duty
in Ireland ?..............or is it dependent on what county/service you work for ?
And secondly, if that story in the paper's true then Wicklow Co. Council ought to be ashamed of themselves.

[alpha]

Question. Is there any sort of a Line of Duty Death (LODD) Benefit payable to a firefighters family, if he's killed while on duty
in Ireland ?..............or is it dependent on what county/service you work for ?
And secondly, if that story in the paper's true then Wicklow Co. Council ought to be ashamed of themselves.

Yes, there is a benefit payable, as I understand it it is around €210,000. Not that a price can be put on any thing but this is what is payable to a retained firefighter.

[notasellout]

i dont think bray has enough call-outs to justify been made a full-time station....the two retained one-pump stations in north county dublin(skerries+balbriggan) would have approx 450-500 calls per year...prob more since malahide shut...i know day-manning is v.popular in the uk+they seem to be shutting a couple of retained stations+opening up a full-time or day-manning station instead...

the reason bray doesnt look busy?????


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